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Re: The Maturity Dilemma

Brendan — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:26:09 -0000

Dan,

You could play the Nomad role--as I intend to very shortly--meaning that you just forego everything 'normal' and live an unconventional life by traveling, working here and there to pay for it, and owning very little (enough to carry in a small truck), etc.

My own life is one of attempting to find inner peace. I've decided the only way to do that is to live the Nomad life: I'm dropping my 'career' in Systems (teehee) at the company I've been with, for five years, to go be a fisherman in Alaska. I'm starting out in the salmon fisheries and moving on to crabbing in the winter. Fun stuff. I'm planning to go as far north, to the ends of the earth, as possible, just to experience it.

In closing, you have to take a step back and decide for yourself what is sane and insane in life. To me, sitting in a cubicle for 30-40 years, having a mortgage, 2.5 kids, a dog, and cat--the typical American life--is insane.

Take care,
Brendan from DSLR

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

danielrm26 — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:11:21 -0000

Jason,

Let me simplify this for both our benefit -- disregard the word "maturity". Forget I mentioned it.

Consider instead the taking on of major responsibilities that require the majority of a person's waking hours during the day, e.g. raising kids and/or making sure the spouse doesn't feel neglected.

My point is quite simple -- taking on these requirements limits the ability for one to become emersed in projects within their dicipline. It limits the time that can be spent submitting to a fit of creativity that could last for 3 days straight. Or maybe it only lasts for a couple of hours -- the point is, those hours may be while someone else is clamoring for your attention. Not dropping your project is planting the seed for resentment, whether it's a spouse or a child.

This is all I'm saying. It's about taking on responsibilities that have the overwhelming potential to limit how one handles a moment of creativity that could last for hours or days if allowed to continue unmolested. Once certain roles and responsibilities are taken on, there is no chance of these creative highs not being interrupted due to the fact that breaking the script of doing x or y at a certain time will be looked upon unfavorably.

I think your analysis of my thoughts was a bit too lofty; it's not about the search for happiness or about defining maturity. It's about tangible tradeoffs with respect to freedom to emerse oneself into their work, and finding a system that allows for both efficient, healthy behavior and the chaotic, dynamic lifestyle that lends itself well to creativity.

-Daniel

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

Jason — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:54:01 -0000

Dan,
Please don't read this as an attack--I'm going to be blunt.

The reason you and I aren't reaching a conclusion on this is because we're talking about two different things (and, at the same time, we're not).

From your post:
"As I get older, my friends are becoming increasingly “mature”, which is to say that they are buying houses, having babies, going to bed earlier, etc."

Maturity does not imply any of those things, and you won't understand it until you let go of that. However, those are things that often come from maturing, as well as being things that come from failing to mature. What matters is how you reach this stage. One path is through surrender, the other, realization of potential.
I think you're so focused on the products as being maturity per se that you're missing what maturity really is; that would be the growth I mentioned on my blog. Therefore, we could say that your use of the word maturity is inappropriate here. You're really talking about a lifestyle change.
You mention the financial benefits and how this could improve your health, and yet, these are products, not the process. In reality, it's the process that's of true value--the rest is actually transitory (even the health benefits). Maturity is more journey than end-point.
You're concerned so much with what you might be giving up (spontenaity, freedom, creativity) that you're really overlooking what this is all about. There's something in you that needs to get out, and you're so stuck on not giving up things that you won't let this other you come into being.
The truth is that if you were to really mature, you would find everything you need, right there in front of you. Yes, your schedule may be different (or not), but you'd see that it's actually to your benefit, not your detriment. When you mature, you become better, not worse. You're struggling so hard with the manifested products, e.g., "how am I going to be spontaneous and find time for my loved ones," that you're not seeing that if you only let go of those concerns, and focus on the path, the answers to those things become much easier to find. In fact, they tend to work theirselves out without much fiddling on your part.
You are on the path, though; you just don't realize it, yet. If you were Luke, you're at the point where he's frustrated with Jedi training because Obi Wan's telling him to blind himself with the blast shield on the helmet--Luke's too concerned with the goal, defeating the little flying laser-ball, that he's not understanding that the task lies within, not without. The objective Obi Wan had laid out for Luke never involved defeating the laser-ball, but that was a by-product of Luke's inward progress.

Once again, from your post:

"I can’t find the balance."

You won't...until you stop trying to find it.

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

danielrm26 — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:09:29 -0000

>Not to mention, I would be absolutely miserable without my weekly trip to Waffle House at 3a.m., or my unscheduled trips to some random place just because it is the weekend.

Yes, this is the crux of the issue -- spontanaity. Not just spontanaity, but spontanaity without ill effects. You can still do all these things with a wife and kids too, but you're likely to hear about it later. :)

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

Brad Wolfe — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:33:08 -0000

Dan,
I have to say, I feel you on the whole issue, but I can't see myself "growing up" (at least settling down)anytime in the near future. I am going to have to move next year to begin working on a phd program, and I know that there is absolutely no way that I am going to get out of the apartment thing, and settle down. Not to mention, I would be absolutely miserable without my weekly trip to Waffle House at 3a.m., or my unscheduled trips to some random place just because it is the weekend. BTW - Kind of unrelated, but Tallahassee is looking like more and more of a reality for me.

--Brad

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

Jason — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:12:10 -0000

I posted my reply on my blog:
http://jtpowell.blogspot.com/2005/04/dans-dilem...

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

Joe — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:47:15 -0000

It's called 'growing up' for a reason. :) It's not the same as to grow down, or inward. You can be rooted without being rootbound. Maturity isn't the end of the journey, it's just a different way of travelling. Think of it as code-efficient. :) Instead of hauling around the baggage of fear - 'I'm afraid of growing up, I'm afraid I'll become less creative or less dynamic or boring (or bored)' -- you can actually learn to travel lighter. Fear not, Luke! Creativity and energy aren't determined by the hours you keep or whether you can drop everything and run off rock-climbing. You're absolutely right about sleep, exercise, and diet: this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. At 83, Michealangelo wrote in his diary, 'I am still learning.'

So figure out how you define freedom (such as: it's great to go rock-climbing anytime I want, but I also want to be free to return to a home (not a cardboard box), and I want insurance so I don't have to worry about what happens if I get hurt, and I want a job waiting for me so that I have a purpose). People tend to toss words like freedom and creativity around without actually examining them, trying to pin down what they actually mean on an individual basis. To abuse yet another cliche, how do you know where you're going until you name the beast? Possibly it's the difference between watching a moth beat itself silly against a window trying to get to the light inside (then what?), and an Aerobat 90 perfecting the 'Falling Leaves' maneuver.

Don't worry, the mere fact you're even verbalizing this feeling is to your credit.

PS An authorization code has (sadly) become a necessity.

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

danielrm26 — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:40:30 -0000

> your authorization code is annoying

I agree, but it's a necessary evil. You'll see in about a month or so when the blog spam starts on your site. :)

-Daniel

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

Jason Ormes — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 02:19:01 -0000

Dan,

I think it comes down to moderation. I only spend about 4 nights a week staying up late, the other 3 nights I get plenty of sleep. If I don't do this I start having problems with clumsiness. There's a very brilliant physicist at the lab that I talk to every now and then and he says that after 30 years of research he's figured out that 4 hours a night for him is optimal.

Nova20,

I too am balancing a 50 hour work week with taking classes at night. It is a lot to deal with. The main thing I have figured out is that no matter how busy life is I have to force myself to take an hour or 2 every couple of days just to do something that I enjoy. This can involve everything from playing video games to riding my bike. If I don't do this I get to the same point you are at where you feel like life is running you instead of the other way around. It does agrivate some people when I tell them I'm dropping what ever it is I'm doing to go do something I enjoy but it seems the only way to stay sane.

P.S dan, your authorization code is annoying.

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

nova20 — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:34:26 -0000

Well, I guess my frustration comes more from trying to do school *and* work at the same time. If I could just concentrate on one of them (and still make enough money to live off of), I'd be fine. It would also be nice to have my own place again, instead of sharing an apartment with 2 other guys.

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

danielrm26 — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:19:52 -0000

Jason,

I am glad you are struggling with the same issue that I am; I was starting to think nobody had the same hesitation about "growing up", so to speak.

I think your method of just staying up later every night and getting less sleep is decent, but unfortunately I have done a lot of reading that says that getting too little sleep is quite bad for us. It actually curtails our abilities in a significant way.

This is bad news for someone who wants desperately to spend 3-5 hours a night emmersed in projects after the woman is put to bed.

Anyway, we need to explore this...there *has* to be a way to pull this off without neglecting the significant other or giving up on staying dynamic and thirsty for knowledge.

-Daniel

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

danielrm26 — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:14:39 -0000

nova20,

I defnitely see your points, but like you said I believe most of your issues come from the downsides of dorm-life and not from being dynamic and free to act at will.

The address issue, and the issue of learning "practical" stuff is interesting, as both are key points for me as well, but again, my problem is how I'm supposed to conduct myself once I *do* have my own house and associated things.

The point is that I feel "settling down" leads to irreversible brain damage. It's an acceptance of calm and repetition to me, and it's utterly scary. I simply can't see being able to study and learn things in an environment where I am expected to eat at certain times, go to bed at certain times, etc.

In short, I need the spontaneous and dynamic lifestyle in order to lead my most rewarding life -- or, at least I think I do.

Thoughts?

-Daniel

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

nova20 — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 01:20:02 -0000

Though I do understand the struggle, I must say that I'm ready to grow up.

I've had enough friggin' *school*... I want to get on to learning practical stuff. I wanna have my own house with an address that doesn't say "Apt x-42" or some such at the end. I don't want to be able to go home at the end of the day and not have to worry about homework. I don't want to take out the trash every three days because my roomates drink enough beer to make 12 elephants puke.

Yeah, yeah... so most of this deals with school, but for cryin' out loud, it's about time.

Re: The Maturity Dilemma

Jason Ormes — Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:47:21 -0000

Nice post, As I slowly drift into this life that you fear I to fear as well. I've come to a sort of way around some of it, I put the wife to bed about 11 and then I stay up until 2 or 3 am just working on stuff that I want to tinker with. it took a while to get use to 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night, but I think I've gotten use to it now. I'm actually looking forward to moving into a house of my own so if I break something its mine, I can make a mess with computer parts and stuff and no one complains.

Jason