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Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

John Monroe — Mon, 25 May 2009 02:48:33 -0000

You're a sick man, Mr. Miessler. It's too bad your parents weren't as smart as you are.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Cheetarah — Mon, 18 May 2009 14:44:50 -0000

I find it absurd that someone intelligent could suggest not having children. An intelligent person not having a child decreases the overall intelligence of the gene pool. This is rendered more problematic by the fact that people of low intelligence have many children and generally don't wish to participate in voluntary extinction. I do, however, advocate banning the disabled (of those disabled genetically and not through experience) from having children, because that improves the well-being of the overall species.

I'm sure Pol Pot was pretty intelligent, not to mention Adolf Hitler. Perhaps people with a genetic propensity to violence and agression should be sterilised? For some reason it bothers some of us far more that those with low IQs can breed than that dangerous and distructive individuals can. Tseaworthy, the kind of comments you make once led me to believe I had no right to have children of my own 'for the good of the species' as I would pass on my medical condition. Now I've achieved more highly than most non-disabled people and actually learned to have some self esteem with it. I'm looking forward to polluting the world with my genes, helping to maintain the diversity without which the likes of Einstein and Beethoven wouldn't have existed. I have no expectations of what my children will be like but yes, there's over 50% chance they'll inherate my condition. I have no expectations as to what they'll be like but you can guarantee I have to move the earth for them to have equal education, employment opportunities and rights to marry and start families of their own they will. Look out world.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

AartiByte — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:53:11 -0000

Hi Daniel,
This is a question easier answered (if you are comfortable with uncomfortable answers) when you look at the reasons why people in less affluent countries have children (i.e., most of the world). Essentially, rather unromantic natural, timeless economic and utilitarian reasons. Thousands of years of biological and genetic conditioning do not vanish with affluence.

As I get older, my subconscious worries about my decision only stem from selfish fears about loneliness, security, and the like. However, I know it is the right decision - for me. Knowing what I know and thinking what I think, it would be unthinkably selfish and self-serving to have a child. For me. Another person may process this whole question in an entirely different manner.

I feel people get defensive about topics such as this because they feel they are being judged or told what to do or not to do. But these are simply perfectly valid and important philosophical questions to ask (ourselves) so we don't go about life as though we were fired out of a slingshot.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Linda Miessler — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:22:57 -0000

Hi Daniel,
At first I was going to say I could not think of any reasons. Your argument makes very good sense to me.
Then I remembered that children are a gift. Especially in a family setting where you live with each other.
2 reasons:1. I am told that there is no love comparable to parent > child (in a good scenario).
2. Children will teach their parents.
And I just thought of a third reason for procreation if you are lucky enough to have more than 1 child. There is no relationship comparable to having a sibling. Is that any food for thought?
I guess you could ask again, why not adopt a child that needs a home? That is a tough one.
Maybe it has to do with the idea that you don't know what genetic and other factors are being given to you. More of a challenge?
Linda Miessler

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

BlakeHH — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 04:08:58 -0000

Why is the birth rate in Japan declining? Tokyo and Osaka City have the lowest birth rates in Japan. Recently the government has tried to bring in family friendly policies. They have added more day care centers for working families with later hours. Schools are running after school programs. There isn't a shortage of payday loans in Japan, but there's a potentially dangerous shortage of something else: children. The birthrates across the world's richer nations are falling, and Japan's is headed for disaster according to some, as the rate of births per couple has fallen below the break-even point, and it will start causing damage, just like an expense can cause damage unless treated with a payday loan. Some companies have even taken to letting employees off early a day or two a week to create future employees. Experts say they have to fix it quickly, like a faxless payday loan can fix your budget quickly. Check this out: http://personalmoneystore.c...

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

marie — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:35:16 -0000

You show me an adoption agency that will give a child to an unmarried woman who makes 20,000 a year, and I'll get right on that.
life is not that simple. and it's not that logical. And I don't think it should be.
Poor people have to make their own babies. And unfortunately, poor, ignorant, too-young, and drug addicted people are too damn good at it.
It's the rich people who go through in vitro fertilization and end up with triplets that I'm mad at. They have the possibility to adopt an already-born child, and they throw their money away to make a brand new one.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

NikHell — Wed, 28 May 2008 13:35:08 -0000

Let's asume that we all stop having babies. So let's say in 90 years 100 years there will be no human kind.
In every aspect you choose to look at it, having babies is a natural next step.
In wild nature, adult males fight to have their genes create the next genaration. So for someone who doen' believe in God, nature gives the answer.
In religion (Christianity), God Himself gave the order to create kids.

And even if you write some reasons, for someone to have a child it's not the only ones.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Tseaworthy — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:25:49 -0000

Seems like an incredible over-simplification. I myself have had the same thoughts before, but minds change. Have you seen Idiocracy? That is what happens when people act on the ideas you are rambling about. I got some news for you, the world is not going to end. Your loved ones will live on past you. The vast majority of people (which are stupid) are not going to stop making babies, and if you give a crap about humanity, you will help the gene pool by embedding some loved, well-educated humans of your own. Unless you don't care about humanity at all, in that case, kill yourself please, you are stinking up our pool.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Tue, 01 Apr 2008 09:42:59 -0000

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Alan Proctor-Thomson — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 03:04:16 -0000

It's strange how defensive people get when you say your not into having babies.

It makes me sick how some people here are suggesting that the "wrong" people are having babies so the "right" people need to have more. It would be like a never ending arms race if we did that.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Ellliottt — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 03:12:03 -0000

Overpopulation is NOT the problem; depopulation is the problem. Birth rates are plummeting in first-world countries. The average age is increasing steadily. Within the century, we will be a nation of retirees. Meanwhile, it is only religious fundamentalists like the Mormons that are reproducing enough to increase their proportion in the population. I think that avoiding a democracy run by religious fundamentalists is good enough a reason to encourage people to have children. (See the work of Phillip Longman for more information on this problem.)

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Jim Piver — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:58:32 -0000

I suggest you check out the VHEMNT web site. The Voluntary Human Extiction Movement. And they're not kidding. I, personally, support them fully.
Jim

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

CarlM — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:57:49 -0000

Pardon the formatting in the population numbers there. That is NOT how they appeared before I clicked "Submit." ANother try:

1950:2,535,093
1955:2,770,753
1960:3,031,931
1965:3,342,771
1970:3,698,676
1975:4,076,080
1980:4,451,470
1985:4,855,264
1990:5,294,879
1995:5,719,045
2000:6,124,123
2005:6,514,751
2010:6,906,558
2015:7,295,135
2020:7,667,090
2025:8,010,509
2030:8,317,707
2035:8,587,050
2040:8,823,546
2045:9,025,982
2050:9,191,287

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

CarlM — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:55:34 -0000

OK, I did the math for the Texas claim. It's right, but entirely irrelevant. For the record, 1000 square feet is a square approximately 11 yards on a side. My driveway is over 2000 square feet. Not that it's relevant anyway, but 1000 square feet is not a lot of space.

Furthermore, the fact that PARTS of the world are depopulating isn't relevant either. The world population is growing (at a rapid rate).

Here are the UN population numbers (and estimates).

1950 2 535 093
1955 2 770 753
1960 3 031 931
1965 3 342 771
1970 3 698 676
1975 4 076 080
1980 4 451 470
1985 4 855 264
1990 5 294 879
1995 5 719 045
2000 6 124 123
2005 6 514 751
2010 6 906 558
2015 7 295 135
2020 7 667 090
2025 8 010 509
2030 8 317 707
2035 8 587 050
2040 8 823 546
2045 9 025 982
2050 9 191 287

In any case, the issue isn't elbow room. It's availability of resources (food, fresh water, energy, etc.).

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Scott — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:45:01 -0000

Please explain how overpopulation is actually a problem, or even real. Large parts of the world are DEPOPULATING. Europe, Russia, Japan. China, with its one-child policy, is approaching this point. In almost every other part of the world where birth rates are above replacement rate, those rates are decreasing rapidly.

Furthermore, even at today's supposedly high world population, every person on earth could fit in Texas with 1000 square feet per person. In a three-dimensional model, every person on earth could fit in the grand canyon with 10x10x10 cubic feet volume per person. I know this because a friend of mine taught math to seventh graders for a while and he made these assertions to wildly disbelieving students. He then went to do the math and prove it them.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

cooperati — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:01:02 -0000

ok, i've thought about it. it's a question of value.

if you see the genetic offspring as more valuable than the adopted child, then you would go with that. that, i'm sure, is a kind of preference that doesn't necessarily need rationalizing. it's equatable to like red instead of blue.

if you don't, and you see the inherent value in raising a child out of the depraved slums and into the suburban slums, then the two types of children are equal, and the course is clear.

there is always some level of compromise between the two, but i'm sure the basis would be the strength of the value placed in genetic children. as a follower of statistical curve, i believe a gradient should be plottable.

basically, an instinctive propensity towards natural pregnancy and genetic link to the child, or not.

-=T=-

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

CarlM — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:44:35 -0000

"All I’m saying is that the choice is, fundamentally, selfish. It’s an internal desire left over from long ago designed to keep us from dying off vs. predators. Like many of our other desires we need to contemplate when it’s important to control it as a remnant of a time long past."

What you're describing in this quote, Daniel, is an instinctual drive, not selfishness. I think that it's a bit of a stretch to call it selfishness to not make the decision to overcome instinct.

I don't think that most new parents rush headlong into parenthood because they just can't wait. I've no idea what the percentage of such parents is, but I seriously doubt it is significant. As for the overpopulation argument (and I'm a BIG believer that the world would be better off with fewer and not more people), I've always thought that 2 makes sense and more is overkill. I like Eamon's idea that if you want more after 2, adopt. I do think that there is something to be said for keeping the best and the brightest in the gene pool, but I think it is just wrong to suggest that anyone should not be allowed to reproduce as Ken seemed to suggest someone believed with: ''So who should be allowed to reproduce? Should it be people who can ensure that there children will not experience pain or cause pain?"

So, in a nutshell ... Yes, Daniel, I think that this is an important discussion. I would suggest that if you really want it to be a discussion, you might leave out loaded terminology such as "selfishness." Your logic seems to be "There are too many people in the world. Intelligent people must surely recognize this. Intelligent people seem to be having babies. These intelligent people must be doing so for entirely selfish reasons." Why not just stick to the first sentence: "There are too many people in the world." ANd, add a question: "What is the solution?" I bet that this would generate an interesting discussion (and it would hit on more than just the birthrate in different countries).

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Justin — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:49:57 -0000

Maybe you have this irrational belief in humanity and want to make sure that it is filled with people like you instead of people who give up their children to for someone else to raise.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Daniel Miessler — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:42:26 -0000

@Ken

I'm actually not taking this in the direction of what should or should not be done in terms of being "allowed" to have children. That's some heavy stuff. All I can really say on that point is that in a world where so many children don't have families, adoption should be more of an option than it is. Of course, there are major problems with the adoption system, so that in itself is nearly enough of a reason to avoid it and have your own children.

Other than that I wasn't touching at all what people should or should not do in a practical sense. In a practical sense I think what we're already doing is perfectly fine...

My point was simply that the desire to have children is simply one of many biological desires, and that some of those we need to learn to control. The idea here is that perhaps given our current environment (too many people, so many babies with no parents) it may be higher ground to choose to adopt rather than have your own.

For the record, however, I don't think I could do it. The part of me that wants children truly wants to know I'm looking at my own blood. I want that bond. So I doubt I'd be able to put this into practice myself -- especially with the state of the adoption systems today.

@Carl

Yes, often times, as in my case, I don't have children because I AM selfish. Or, to put it in a nicer way, I don't have children because I think you need to be ready to stop thinking about yourself before doing so -- at least for those who are mature enough to understand what they're giving up. It's really a different type of selfishness, though, because it doesn't contribute to overpopulation, it doesn't add another carbon footprint, and that sort of thing. In other words, it's not a GOOD selfish, but it is a NON-BAD selfish.

Look, the bottom line is that children bring joy to people, and some are so taken by the desire to have them that they can scarcely wait to get started. That's fine. In fact it's great. As someone has said, we all indulge our desires to one degree or another.

All I'm saying is that the choice is, fundamentally, selfish. It's an internal desire left over from long ago designed to keep us from dying off vs. predators. Like many of our other desires we need to contemplate when it's important to control it as a remnant of a time long past. That time may not be now (I can think of a great argument for why it's not), but it's definitely worth having the discussion.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Chris — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:38:53 -0000

@Daniel

I'm not sure if I'm using the same definition of selfish.

I'm using:

selfish - concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others.

So here is a hypothetical. Let's say there is a couple where the woman enjoys the process of becoming a mother, a biological ability that she can perform. She also enjoys taking care of children and wants to have a second child. Let's say she's married to a man who is happy with the one child they already have but they are doing well financially and although otherwise personally indifferent, he chooses to participate in having another child to make his wife happier.

Perhaps it gives this couple joy to see another individual that represents a mix of both of them: her smile, his eyes, a laugh that reminds them of a grandparent.

Are they selfish in this situation? Must they solve all the unfortunate circumstances in the world before taking actions toward their own benefit or desire or to benefit those closest to them?

The man harms no one in the above senerio. Neither does the woman. Neither of these people created the orphan, so I do not see the individual responsibility you seem to suggest they have to the nameless orphan.

That does not mean that there isn't a collective responsibility to the orphan, but then you have to decide what is the collective? The collective can not be Billions of people, we're not biologically formed to operate on that scale, nor would we really want to.

On a global scale it's not practical, adj. used to describe properties which have to work in real life when used , for the individual to live like that.

And maybe that's where it rests, Idealism vs. Practicality?

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Eamon — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:37:55 -0000

Well, children do change everything. It good ways and bad.

I have two young kids. They are great fun and also very trying. I have grown up so much in the last few years, you have to grow up. You have little humans that rely on you to teach them everything. They look up to you. They love you.

You will never love another living thing like you will love your child. There isn't even a second thought when it comes to their safety. It's a strange feeling. BUT, and I can't stress this enough, They also make you angrier than any other living thing when they are being evil.

I've known really great people that chose not to have children. They would have made great parents, but it wasn't for them.

I would like to have more children, but I think that after two we would stop having our own and adopt.

There are hordes of bad parents out there in the world. It's sad. It's horrific what some kids go through. But I think if you take the cynical approach of not bringing any life into the world because the world is a bad place, you've admitted defeat. We need more good people, not less.

Of course what I think a lot of people fail to realize is that the world hasn't become more violent than it was thousands of years ago.

That doesn't mean that good parents don't raise bad people, but it helps to have good parents to teach people to make good choices.

It's totally up to the individual, but I think you miss out on something wonderful not having kids. They have made my life exponentially better, but that's me. It isn't always good for people to have kids.

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Ken — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:37:11 -0000

@Daniel

So who should be allowed to reproduce? Should it be people who can ensure that there children will not experience pain or cause pain?

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

CarlM — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:36:37 -0000

I merely threw out a hypothetical.

But, IF one believes that the world would benefit from the DNA of the best and brightest remaining in the gene pool, then one could argue that their willingness to do so is not necessarily a selfish thing.

In a separate direction ... I think it could be argued that many of those who choose NOT to have children do so for selfish reasons. (I apologize if this was already mentioned above.) The logic might go like this: Having a child and raising that child properly requires an enormous sacrifice. I'm not willing to make that sacrifice. (Isn't that selfish?)

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

Daniel Miessler — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:08:53 -0000

@Carl

Actually, that's pretty much what's happening, isn't it? The countries that are "doing well" in the world are the ones with the lowest birth rates. In fact, most of them are facing population shortages and are taking extreme measures such as paying people to reproduce.

So yes, I agree, but I consider that a separate argument.

Are you basically saying (I'm asking) that the world NEEDS the best and brightest to be selfish in order for our civilization to succeed?

Re: Is It Wrong to Have Children?

CarlM — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:53:17 -0000

At the risk of my words being twisted, let me throw out a hypothetical.

Let's suppose that all of the best and the brightest bought into your premise that they should adopt rather than have children of their own.

Discuss.